Enterprise-J?

[Telemachus Remo]

Okay, for all of you out there who still watch Enterprise, or at least watched the last two episodes that aired on UPN (Azati Prime and Damage), I'd like to start a little discussion of what we see about the Trek future and such.

In Azati Prime, Archer is brought to the future by Daniels once again - this time to the year 2454 (approx.), and onboard the Enterprise-J, during what he calls the historic Battle of Kroton 5. During the brief few minutes he's there we learn a few interesting things about the future.

First of all, its interesting that the Enterprise of 2454 (less than 75 years in the future from current Trek) has the suffix of -J to it. That means that in less than 75 years, which is only about 3/4 of a starship's expected lifetime, Starfleet manages to go through the Enterprises-E, -F, -G, -H, and -I. That's five ships in 75 years, which averages to about one ship every fifteen years. Now compared to most ships that's about a sixth of its expected life time, but for an Enterprise that's actually not bad. The Enterprise-D lasted 7 years (one for each season of the show), and not a single one lasted more than 10 years as far as we know.

Now let's talk about the brief glimpse we get of the inside of the ship. Am I the only one to notice that Starfleet's traditional silver bulkheads and decor has been replaced with a dark brown? How about the control interfaces? They're no longer blue and orange for the most part, but entirely green and black. Is anyone else reminded of the Borg's interfaces by this, especially the circular fashion of the controls? Does this mean that the Borg have been conquered and assimilated into the Federation, or is it merely an alliance or technology exchange? Was Seven of Nine's expertise used to "Borgafy" Federation technologies? Or where Ginan right, and the Borg and Federation have reached a mutual understanding? Now yes, I may be over analyzing this last bit, but, why was there such a huge window in the room?

Next, let's look at the Master Systems Display that we see. Traditionally, they've only been found in Engineering and on the Bridge, so why is there one in such a deserted section of the vessel (for not once do you see or hear anyone but Daniels and Archer)? Now, the vessel is a logical take on hull construction advancement, with its saucer section, and the two pylons/nacelles, with no visible drive section.

Daniels mentions a bunch of races in his dialogue, when he explains what the Federation is to Archer. He says that they all lived peacefully together as part of the Federation, until the Sphere Builders arrived. Then he says a bunch of races - humans, andorans, vulcans, trill - that we already know belong to the Federation. But that's not all, he also says the Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, Bajoran, Xindi, and one called the Altrans (you can't make out clearly what he says - but that's what the Closed Captioning states). Who are these Altrans? When did the Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans and Bajorans join the Federation?

Now for my brief thought on "Damage". When the holographic girl appears to the Council (without the Reptillians present), did anyone notice how much she resembled the female Founder? I checked it out and she is the same actress, but why would they reuse the same facial/skin make-up theme? Just for budget purposes, or for another reason? Now assuming that she was one of the "sphere builders" would that mean that they were the Founders or the Founders were descendants of them?

Anyone else want to bat around any ideas for these episodes?

[Robert Falcon]

Not sure about the woman from damage, but I have a different idea about the Enterprise-J. To me, it doesn't make sense that Daniels would bring Archer to a ship activly participating in the battle. If any of the crew saw them, they'd have to explain who they were and why they were there.

My opinion: The Enterprise-J is from the 31st century. It's sitting there watching the battle under cloak. Daniels would bring Archer there because it would be a safe place to watch the battle from. No chance of interruptions from the crew.

I know that's not the standard convention, so I've kept my mouth shut. But that's my opinion.

[+ TyrWaltas]

I was sort of bothered by the whole Enterprise-J thing. It seemed almost an insult to the ship and her lineage. I agree that the Enterprise is one of the most destroyed ships in the fleet, but J? C'Mon...the only reason that they would have gone that high would have been destruction of the previous ships. Starships have a life of about 50 years given they receive proper refits and such. So, unless one had an unusually long life span (like good ol' NCC-1701-20 years, baby!) that means each of them were destroyed in some sort of conflict. Kind of a slap in the face if you ask me.

The only reason I can think of that would have Archer appear on the Ent-J during combat is that they already knew who was going to win the battle. The J was hit a couple times during their conversation, so it was actively participating in the battle. I remember seeing phaser blasts lancing out from the hull as well.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited April 27, 2004 by TyrWaltas

[Robert Falcon]

Hmm.... Point.

I only saw the episode once and didn't really catch that scene, just the conversation between Archer and Daniels. I usually pay attention to that sort of thing... Hmm...

It's a stretch, but here's another theory: Ent-J came back from some other time to assist in the battle.

Possible?

Can't expand on that right now. Gotta get back to school work.

[Dopper]

I couldn't help but notice that on one of the displays, the ship schematic looked strikingly similar to the Enterprise from the show of the same name. Also, I don't think the J was cloaked since they were shaking with phaser fire. It is possible that their cloak was detected.

[Tpreen]

You know, I thought I was going nuts or something when the holographic lady appeared in the council chamber and she looked/sounded so familiar. Glad someone else noticed it.

[Telemachus Remo]

(No T'Preen you haven't gone nuts... well, not for that anyway!)

Dopper, I don't understand what you meant about the ship's schematic... care to explain a little better for me?

As for the whole cloaking thing, well, I don't think it was cloaked because it was being hit during the battle. Also if it was cloaked then you wouldn't really see the nacelles of the ship would you? (At least I think that's what those things were)

I don't see any reason for the Enterprise-J to have gone back in time. It would seem like there would be no reason too. It makes sense that the -J is that period of time, given the average life span of the Enterprises. Actually, I would have placed the -L, or perhaps even the -K, in that time instead. But it all depends on the life span of the vessels.

As for the -J suffix being an insult, I don't think it is. Not all vessels actually make it to the 50 (or 100 according to DITL.ORG) expected life span. Yes, many may have been blown up... but couldn't they also have disappeared or been lost in space. Perhaps they became outdated and a new vessel was created because the advanced technologies couldn't be put into that vessel. Remember the Enterprises have always been Starfleet's flagship, so they usually are state-of-the-art vessels. Even if the -D hadn't been destroyed by the Duros sisters (it was them right?), then I think it would have been phased out when the Sovereign or Prometheus came into production anyway.

(Thanks by the way, I never knew the Enterprise lasted 20 years! Never followed TOS too much, - way before my time - since technically even TNG was...)

[Dopper]

When I was speaking of the schematic, I realize now I may have confused some people (I sure was). I didn't necessarily mean a schematic, just a display of the Enterprise. I'm not sure if it was because Daniels had just taken Archer from that ship, but I'm pretty sure I saw the Enterprise on a display.

[Telemachus Remo]

Ah, okay, I think I understand now. The first time I saw the display (which I assume is a MSD), I thought it displayed the NX-Enterprise, but then I looked at it closer the second time (and paused my tape). If you look carefully, yes the saucer is similar, but the nacelles are entirely different. The pylons are almost triangular and shoot out at sharp angles from the saucer. There appears to be no drive section at all. Now the shape of the saucer is a little bizarre, because in recent vessels the saucer has been eliptical or an "arrow-head" (Sovereign, Prometheus, Intrepid) instead of a circular shape (like the Galaxy), but the Ent-J was almost a perfect circle (or oval). Why would Starfleet go back on their design advances? Perhaps the new shape turned out to be less efficient at high warps, even though it was originally deemed to be better suited for them. But if we take the shape of the "Dauntless" to be any indication of what a high warp-speed (or in its case slipstream) efficient hull shape would be, then the arrow-head idea was better. Am I making any sense?

[Telemachus Remo]

If anyone manages to find an screen captures, feel free to post them. We could use them in this discussion. I'm trying to figure out how to get one off my tape of the display, but I'm having no luck yet. (My computer doesn't like me much)

[Dopper]

Sounds close enough to me! As for the image thing, I can't help ya. I don't know much about the newer computers, and my roommates got one of the best.

Maybe Starfleet just tought the arrowhead "saucer" was cooler?

[+ TyrWaltas]

(Thanks by the way, I never knew the Enterprise lasted 20 years! Never followed TOS too much, - way before my time - since technically even TNG was...)

Yup..NCC-1701 was 20 years old in Star Trek III. During the de-briefing with the CNC of Starfleet. Scotty said he'd like to supervise the Enterprise's refit, the CNC said there would be no refit. Kirk objected...

CNC: "Jim, the Enterprise is 20 years old. We feel her day is over."

Of course, that's when Kirk stole her and took her back to Genesis where she self-destructed..

Of all the Enterprises, that one was my favorite. The modified Constitution class.

[Guest]

However, if you look at chronological and other canon data, there is no way that the Enterprise was JUST 20 years old when Starfleet Commander Morrow came on board the Enterprise in ST3. It HAD to be much older. Kirk took command of the Enterprise about 20 years prior to ST3. But we know from Menagerie Parts 1 and 2 that Spock served with Captain Pike for 11 years prior to Kirk taking command. Then we know that Robert April was the first captain of the Enterprise. Based on that alone, the Enterprise was at least 31 years old. I believe the encyclopedia puts the commissioning of the Enterprise sometime around 2245 and if memory serves, ST3 took place in 2285. That means the Enterprise was REALLY 40!

[Nathan Baker]

Then we can rationalize that Morrow was basing his figure on the fact that Enterprise was 20 since her first refit with Kirk and the major overhaul. Which makes more sense.

[Telemachus Remo]

Well then I guess that only one Enterprise was odler than 10. (Sorry I never got to see much of TOS, and its on space just as I get home from school everyday. I get to see the last 5-10 minutes at most. But I have seen ST3 - I have it on DVD! Can't believe I missed that part though...)

[Guest]

Mister Baker...I never took you for an Admiral Morrow apologist!

[+ TyrWaltas]

There's a lot of gaps between Enterprises that still need to be filled..

We never really find out the fate of NCC-1701-A, although it can be assumed that she was decommissioned after Kirk returned from Camp Khitomer..

NCC-1701-B's history is largely unknown. All we've seen of her is in ST: Generations. Since Excelsior-class ships exist in present day (although they're mainly used to cart Admirals around) one could assume that she survived all the way up to the Klingon/Federation alliance.

NCC-1701-C is probably the shortest-lived Enterprise, but again, depending on when B was decomissioned or destroyed..C was destroyed during the battle to save a Klingon outpost which spawned the Federation/Klingon alliance.

NCC-1701-D's history is the clearest. She was lost over Viridian III. Although there's no exact timeline, one could guess she was about 8-10 years old.

NCC-1701-E, of course, still exists, and actually is the longest-lived Enterprise when it comes to the movies:

NCC-1701-E: 3 movies (First Contact, Insurrection, Nemesis)

NCC-1701: 2 1/2 movies (ST I,II, part of III)

NCC-1701-A: 2 1/4 movies (last part of IV, V, VI)

NCC-1701-D: 3/4 movie (Generations)

NCC-1701-B: 1/4 movie (Generations)

[+ TyrWaltas]

However, if you look at chronological and other canon data, there is no way that the Enterprise was JUST 20 years old when Starfleet Commander Morrow came on board the Enterprise in ST3.  It HAD to be much older.  Kirk took command of the Enterprise about 20 years prior to ST3.  But we know from Menagerie Parts 1 and 2 that Spock served with Captain Pike for 11 years prior to Kirk taking command.  Then we know that Robert April was the first captain of the Enterprise.  Based on that alone, the Enterprise was at least 31 years old.  I believe the encyclopedia puts the commissioning of the Enterprise sometime around 2245 and if memory serves, ST3 took place in 2285.  That means the Enterprise was REALLY 40!

I bow to your superior Trek-knowledge

I had forgotten about Pike and April. Without a doubt, NCC-1701 is the longest-lived Enterprise. Even if you count the refit as a new commissioning (officially the class was changed from Constitution to either Improved Constitution or Enterprise-class, depending on the source) she was still over 20 years old when she was destroyed.

[8472]

the (TOS) Enterprise is Constitution Class and the (Movie-era) Enterprise is known as Constitution-Refit...

anyway, in regards to the interior design elements of the Enterprise-J, it appears to be heavily influenced by the Cardassians (looks similar to DS9 anyway)...this makes sense if the Cardassians joined the Federation...

as for the saucer design...the Enterprise-J appears to be a large ship, like the Enterprise-D so spaceframe-wise it makes sense that it will have a similar design...it's large, sturdy, and can accomodate a lot of people/supplies/equipment...this ship looks like it was built for exploration/long-term missions...the "modern" ships have sleeker, pointier saucer designs because they're built for speed and action...also, it looks like the deflector may be mounted on the front, which leads me to believe that it might be used for slipstream; the smaller nacelles may be for short-distance warp drive when the slipstream would be impractical....

now, one thing that really bothers me is the location of the corridor...it appears to be located underneath and almost behind the saucer, implying a secondary hull/drive-section...but for some reason, the curvature of the corridor looks wrong...it makes the scale of the ship look smaller when compared with the view of the saucer out the window (assuming it IS the saucer)...it just looks like it shouldn't be there...

well, that's my 2 cents...

[Telemachus Remo]

Just to throw in a little more to our discussion: If you observe the scene taking place outside the window on the Ent-J, you can see clearly a Prometheus-class vessel as well as a Dauntless one. Now officially the Dauntless isn't a Starfleet ship class, even though its been used here at UFOP, and it does make a little sense that in the 26th Century, if that's when we finally get Slipstream drive to work (which isn't that great speculation-wise, since I don't think it'll take two centuries to get it working), that the first class to use it would be reminiscent (if not exactly the same as) the Dauntless from [VOY: Hope and Fear]. But why, 200 years in the future, would we still have a Prometheus? Now the Dauntless might not be a Dauntless, we don't see it up close, but the Prometheus is almost absolutely a Prometheus, at least going by the way we see it! Doesn't it sound a little unplausible for the Prom to be that far in the future, kind of like the NX-Enterprise fighting alongside Voyager or the Ent-D/E?

[Beta]

i have not seen the episode it has not been air here yet. But my idea is that the J is from say around the 29th, 28th century and they have the large defector because of time travell. My final point is that i belive that both ships are from say 6 or 7 years after voyager arriving home. And are there investigating the temporal gate that the enterprise is genterating. And the reason for the movements of the enterprise is because of weapons discharge on the other side of the rift. Or i have any other plan but i cant be bother to explain now. I will if people dismiss this idea.

[Salak]

There's a lot of gaps between Enterprises that still need to be filled..

NCC-1701-D's history is the clearest. She was lost over Viridian III. Although there's no exact timeline, one could guess she was about 8-10 years old

Commissioned: October 2363 (4th?)

At: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards, Mars

Destroyed: 2371

Cause of destructin: Warp Core Implosion after Breach caused by Klingon Bird of Prey

[+ TyrWaltas]

Honestly, I was glad to see 1701-D go..always hated that bubbly, pregnant-looking design. The Sovereign-class is sooooo much more stylish.

[Salak]

Honestly, I was glad to see 1701-D go..always hated that bubbly, pregnant-looking design. The Sovereign-class is sooooo much more stylish.

Have to agree...

A 42 deck Brick or a 24 Deck sleek, Fast LOOKING beauty? Sovereign my favourite every time... Although I know the interior of the Galaxy Class better (Of course...)

[Rocket]

Well I will always have a weak point for a inrepid class. But I was searching on the net for a iamge for enerprise j and I have found 1.

But I think it's some kind of mix with the sovereign and the galaxy class.

And another thing the prometheus class has more teeth than other vessels but it's strange that it didn't separated in to three little ships.

Edited November 8, 2004 by Rocket