[Round 8] Top Sims Contest Discussion

[Jordan aka FltAdmlWolf]

Please use this thread for any general discussion or questions about the Top Sims Contest. Please do not post praise or criticism for submitted sims in this thread. Instead, post those praise or criticisms in the submitted sim's own thread.

Any discussion about Round 7 should go in the Round 7 Discussion Thread, not here.

[Guest]

Have the dates gone a bit wrong somewhere?

apparently round 8 shouldn't even start until Monday but we're voting on round 7.

[Ryan Horn]

Quick question...

I thought I'd seen earlier that you shouldn't post your own simms...

Is that still in place? Or did I simply misread?

Thanks..

[Toni]

The rules state that you can.

[Ilene Torza]

The rules state you can enter your own SIMs but some people frown on doing so.

[Toni]

Yes, some do, but it's not up to them to judge people for following the rules. Not all ships have people watching the sims that are posted on their ships, so the rules are very fair in allowing people to post their own so that there is representation from all ships.

[Salak]

Perhaps true, but interpretation of whether it's in the spirit of the competition can affect voting preferences.

In my view, and in the view of others I'm sure, the competition is to recognise the ability of those you write with. You can't nominate yourself in the awards ceremony, so why should you be allowed to here? More often than not, I skip over sims nominated by their authors and consider them ineligable for my vote. I also refuse outright to nominate my own sims, even if no-one else on my ship puts sims forward.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Salak

[Jordan aka FltAdmlWolf]

Perhaps true, but interpretation of whether it's in the spirit of the competition can affect voting preferences.

In my view, and in the view of others I'm sure, the competition is to recognise the ability of those you write with. You can't nominate yourself in the awards ceremony, so why should you be allowed to here? More often than not, I skip over sims nominated by their authors and consider them ineligable for my vote. I also refuse outright to nominate my own sims, even if no-one else on my ship puts sims forward.

Why not simply judge the sims on their merit, instead of who nominated them? The purpose of the contest is to find the best sim for each month/year. Being able to recognize others for their work is a nice by-product, which I've clearly publicized and pushed, but you can see by reading the contest materials that it's not necessarily the only intent of the contest.

[Salak]

True, but I'd rather vote for a good sim submitted by a ship mate on quality grounds than a good sim submitted by its own author in the hope of winning for themselves.

[ethan]

I'd rather vote for a sim on it's merit, despite who entered it in, as long as every ship has fair representation. It isn't fair, in my opinion, to not vote for a sim because the person who wrote it nominated it. If you're proud of your work and you feel it's a fair entry then post it up!

Fair representation of a vessel is what we're after here, not dictated voting.

Edited May 25, 2008 by ethan

[Alana Devar]

There is an amazing amount of talent here and it is good to see that we can appreciate each other’s work. Controversy aside of who nominated what, truth be told, if I was nominated or I nominated myself, I would be more inclined to vote honestly to the piece that I felt most deserving. And, since I am overcritical of myself, I would more than likely vote for someone else (I can guarantee you I would).

I believe this is a great way to showcase what talent we have here and every ship deserves recognition. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to read posts from other ships and this gives me a chance to see pieces of UFOP at its greatest.

[Jordan aka FltAdmlWolf]

I'll have to think on this. We may need to go back to a system where sims are submitted via a form and then posted here. I think it's a bit distasteful that people are 'disqualifying' sims on their own accord simply because of who submitted them. It's not in the spirit of the contest.

Update: there are dozens of competitive situations that come to mind where people self-nominate. College applications, sports, jobs, etc. We don't rely on someone to be nominated by their peers just to get a new job, so why must we rely on such a thing here?

[Hugh Barnes]

Okay now to set the cat amongs the pigeons.

Does it really matter who submitted the sim, it should only matter if it's good quality.

Does it matter it I nominate my own sim, as long as I don't vote for it.

I've seen too many good sims voted down because it wasn't sent 'by my ship' which to me is stupid, too many good writers are loosing out to politics

[Salak]

I'll have to think on this. We may need to go back to a system where sims are submitted via a form and then posted here. I think it's a bit distasteful that people are 'disqualifying' sims on their own accord simply because of who submitted them. It's not in the spirit of the contest.

If people can nominate their own sims in that situation, I would give consideration to boycott.

Star ratings only dictate who gets to the actual poll. For the most part, entries do anyway. Thiose are where it gets marked down. I won't voice exactly why I tend to ignore self-nominated sims for both sections however as the authors responsable could be seriously offended if I word it even slightly wrongly. I have strong feelings about the matter though.

If it's not an author I like, but the nomination is by someone else, I'll still read it and consider it. I don't mark sims down based on ship, only on the quality of the sim and whether the submittant is the author. I only ignore if it's a self-nomination. If it really is good enough to be nominated, someone will pick it up. If no-one else from your ship nominates, then advertise the contest to your OOC list if you feel under-represented.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Salak

[Ilene Torza]

I agree that SIMs should be rated/voted for primarily on Merit - and that good SIMs from other ships are probably being missed/ignored. I've never voted down a SIM simply because it wasn't from my ship - nor has anyone I talk to on a regular basis. Although my rating may be affected by who submitted a SIM (as in self-nomination), its always been consistent and my final vote has never disqualified a SIM simply because of who wrote or submitted it. AND in the spirit of trying to catch those good SIMs that go unrecognized, I've been reading at least one other ship consistently and nominating SIMs from that ship that I believe showcase good writing.

However, like Salak, I refuse to nominate my own SIMs, even if I think they're stellar SIMs and probably belong in the contest. Often this has resulted in what I believe are good SIMs going relatively unnoticed. However, I think this is a small price to pay since sometimes a SIM I think is good really is [...] (and vice versa). My hope for this contest would be that everyone would be more concerned about nominating SIMs from others than they are about nominating their own and that this contest would be a way to get more people from every ship involved in the forums.

[ethan]

My main concern in this contest was (and I'll say it again) the fair representation of every ship. The vast majority of submissions have been from the USS Ronin and other ships in the minority. Not every ship has had a fair bout through each of the rounds and I feel that it is exceedingly unfair to 'skip' a SIM because of who it is submitted by. If the author submits their own work then good for them! I'm never happy with my own work and so would be too much of a chicken to submit mine for fear of backlash. However, not naming anyone in particular, there has been one steady person submitting sims for their group and them alone!

How can that be fair? One SIM in the whole round from one ship, another singular SIM from another ship and the rest swamped by an enthusiastic majority.

Since this is the case, I think it is unfair for voters to cast their stones onto another SIM simply because the author submitted their own work. It's ludricrous and quite frankly childish. As Wolf says, we nominate ourselves for things in everyday life from which ship we post on to which job we have to keep our addiction to the UFoP fueled. Why should this be any different?

If I see a SIM in my group worth submitting then I will. Personally, I am on one of the best ships for great writers in this fleet and so have a lot of entries into the competition. We take pride in each other's work and I only hope that, without the need for a boycott, others take up the challenge and submit their collegues work for voting, therefore making this competition as fair as it should be.

Edit: Coincidentally, I would wonder if this attitude of "don't submit your own" applies to the Featured Articles on the Wiki.

Edited May 25, 2008 by ethan

[Salak]

For the record, the majority of FA's on the wiki are submitted by people other than the authors. "Salak" is an exception, solely because I was TOLD to nominate my own ship or character to get the ball rolling, and Wolf had singled my character article out before. Wolf nominated "StarBase 118" for a similar reason, and although one of the main authors nominated "Karawati", that was a joint effort, as wiki articles should be. "Betazoid", "Kolk, Jackford", "Ventu, Lily"... all nominated by people other than the main editor.

As for calling my postion "ludicrous and childish", I find that highly insulting Ethan. I have carefully tried to avoid using anything that may be seen as an insult within my arguments, I would hope others did the same.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Salak

[James T. Kolk]

And on that note, we have no doubt come to realize that many of us feel very strongly about this issue. Perhaps we should declare a recess for everyone to cool off. I would say, "Smoke if ya got 'em," but science has discovered that that sort of thing is detrimental to one's health.

Personally, I'm torn on the whole issue. I'm not a huge fan of self-nomination, but I don't think we should have to resort to a nomination form to resolve the disagreement. I think everyone's been making a lot of good points, and I sincerely hope we can come to some sort of compromise that keeps the Top Sims contest alive and fair to everyone.

[Idril Mar]

**puts on moderator hat**

I would ask everyone to try to keep in mind that this is a game, a friendly one at that, and to not let your own attitudes or tempers get in the way of your or anyone else's fun.

**takes off moderator hat**

Now, I actually agree with Salak that I will not submit my own sims in any regard. I'd like it if other people had the same sensibility as I did, but... *shrug* we're all different.

[ethan]

Then I apologise if it cause offense; it wasn't intended to, however it's my general feelings on the matter.

As with the Featured Articles, there has to be a nominator and a supporter. Coinciding with this matter, I do feel that the position you are taking is directed at selected individuals and the fact that this has only come to light now in round 8 would be frustrating to any author that has submitted their own work in prior rounds. In my opinion, that would be highly insulting to know that my own work had been skimmed over, considering that it states in the rules that a person can submit their own work.

All in all, I am sorry Salak if this has caused you to be insulted, again it wasn't meant to and we've had serious debates in the past that have come out all rosy and stuff. We're all torn over it so I'm calling it quits from my end and extending the hand of gentlemanly friendship once more. No hard feelings.

Edited May 25, 2008 by ethan

[Salak]

In all fairness, this came to light a long time ago. A few of us have been voicing opposition to self-nominations since before Round 3. if people want to self-nominate, then yes, it's within the rules, but do note that it's frowned upon by some. I'd point at one of my own comments, but although I know they're there, I can't seem to find any at this precise moment in time.

Ethan; fine. Forgotten already *takes hand and shakes*

Edited May 25, 2008 by Salak

[Idril Mar]

*takes nobody's hand and just shakes*

Surprising how a good shake can be therapeutic.

[Jordan aka FltAdmlWolf]

if people want to self-nominate, then yes, it's within the rules, but do note that it's frowned upon by some.

And this seems to be the essential sticking point. It's frowned-on by some, in direct opposition to the stated rules of the competition. The rules are very clear: self-nomination is allowed.

Again: the point of the competition is to find the best sim of the month/year. The ability to recognize others for their work is a part of the competition, no-doubt. But that's not the primary goal. If it were the primary goal, I'd remove the ability to self-nominate.

I'm certainly not forcing anyone to participate. If you want to boycott, then by all means: stamp your feet, raise a fuss, and don't play along. You, and your shipmates, will be the worse-off for it. But when the submissions slow to a trickle because everyone's just being stubborn, I'll just go ahead and shut the competition down. Believe me -- it's no sweat off my back. Takes me 30+ minutes every two weeks to organize this particular competition, and I've certainly got plenty of other things to do on a regular basis. I do it happily because I want to encourage people to have their sims, and the sims of their peers, recognized. But I'm not going to beg and plead for everyone to follow the rules.

So, it seems that we have quandary: either we talk about a suitable compromise to allow everyone to submit sims as they have been, or we move to a blind nomination form.

[Guest]

For what it's worth I generally would not consider nominating one of my own posts as I don't like to blow my own trumpet.

However, if I'd written a JP with someone and thought that their writing was top-notch I would certainly consider submitting it - why should my co-author be neglected because of my sense of pride?